Posts by Jonathan Drake

26

Jesus died for US...technically

by enigma1863 in

for god so loved the world he gave his only begotten son and then took him back.

that's not love, its a big legal loophole.

people have technically died in the past, and by the standards of diagnosing death in bible times you could definitely beat 48 hrs and return.

Jonathan Drake

Oh it's spelled differently. That was an honest question btw, I wasn't trying to be an ass or anything.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

I'm not sure how Ive preached to anyone. I've just put forward verses showing yours and others statements about what the Quran says is false. I didn't need to say it was false, the book did it for me.

I also didn't start the discussion, I replied to others comments.

further, evidence was never being discussed, merely what a book says and doesn't say. Neither yourself or anyone else has put forward any historical evidence or facts or references to such - I, on the other hand, have provided numerous quotes from the book in question. I have done so not with any aim to preach, I don't care what you guys believe. But the discussion began with misunderstood statements about the Quran which I corrected with the context and other verses. I would argue, if the arguement is to be made that preaching has been done, that some of you have also been preaching to me that it's all make believe. But you've done so with merely your opinions and misquotes.

I will gladly read any evidence you wish me to, once its been provided.

I also apologize if I've come across preachy, it wasn't my goal at all.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

No, the believers of the bible and quran chose not to agree and also chose to avoid the word "possession" while fundamentally relying on the concept for their beliefs and to peddle their belief that it is inspired.

Please, tell us more about how spirit creatures wrote books. Why can't they now send tweets or write facebook posts to clarify things?

It wasn't a matter of choice, the explanation of, "inspiration" is clear in scripture. And it doesn't agree, and is easy to comprehend with the full harmony of whatever example you want to use from either book.

As far as your last statement, it's because clarification is unnecessary. The bible is no longer outlawed amd locked away by the church, anyone can read it and see what it says. The question then becomes will they except it's message or what someone else says its message is?

if a person denies this message, Christians teach they will die. I disagree, this is not what it says. It says the judge is Christ, and that all those who do good and are righteous will be saved. I would argue for example, that persons such as yourself have very valid personal reasons for hating religion and for deciding to have nothing to do with it or its sources. However this does not make you unrighteous, and it is not condemning you especially because what you've done, really, is deny the false christs - which is actually what it directs us to do. Any spite you feel toward the bible is not without reason, and is because of those people.

So unlike most who call themselves Christian, I feel, personally, that if I can see and understand yours as well as likely others reasons for dismissing everything loosely connected to religion, certainly an immortal, just judge called the Prince of Peace can. I have many friends who are genuinely good people who feel similarly to both yourself and cofty, and of these friends I would say if God could judge them unrighteous then we are all royally screwed.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

So, what, specifically, do you believe about the Bible? That it contains truth? Some truth, all truth? That's it's a collection of interesting stories? What specific truth did Mohammed teach about the Bible? Do you believe Adam literally existed and that angels literally exist and bowed to him?

I believe that dissecting the books and trying to argue they are untrue for any number of reasons both misses the point of the message and is almost always not factual anyway and merely shows a persons misunderstanding of it.

Thus, so far as I am able, I will defend the books by providing the proper context of what happened and any factual information I can. But I will not argue about whether something happened or not so far as our discoveries have no way of showing, because to do so misses the point entirely.

Thus, in answer to your question. I will say I believe Jesus was the messiah, that he willingly took this role, and that he died and was raised to heaven. Because I believe this i strive to live up to his example and direction to love, be tolerant, amd treat people as I wish to be treated whether I agree with their choices or not. I will not judge them or think badly of them, and will seek to make amends whenever I do since it will happen despite my best efforts. all this I will do because I do not miss the point of the message. I also believe that something bad will likely happen to those who have assumed the role of a messenger or Christ, as per Jesus stating it would. And that all religions following a man today are false. In the end, what I believe, is that people like you and I and others here who have renounced our religions because of their clear hypocrisies and lies will be saved, as well as all those who are in the religions honestly trying to find truth, as well as all those whomever else the judge finds is a good and righteous person, regardless of any errors they may have made.

and I believe this because it is, in fact, what the bible says - and, so far, the Quran as well.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@simon

inspiration is explained as either 1 of 2 things:

1: in the nt, spirit merely assisted the writers to remember things that already happened. No posession.

2. In the OT and in Revelation, Angels appeared telling the writer what to write. No posession.

So I do not understand your idea about posession, I dont know where it comes from but the bible doesn't agree, and nor does the Quran.

i should also clarify that I meant I'm trying to disprove it in my own studies, not here. Here I will defend what I have read of it so far as a can recall it as long as I have not disproved it.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

@ viv

i believe the bible is to be taken as it was written, letting it speak for itself. I also believe to understand its message you have to know the people and culture around its conception. I.e, JWs believe the GB is the faithful steward of Luke 12. This is not so, because the steward or house manager was a cultural reference, one that referred to the servant to whom the master gave the keys of his house. Thus, the steward was Peter (Matt 16:19)

any attempt to take the bible in some other way than just what it says for itself is to interpret, hence twist it, into something it is not at all. amd this is what has been done with the bible for 1000s of years.

as far as the Quran goes, as I've said Ive only read it once so far. But I see no contradictions to the bible, only a great deal of emphasis on the goal of the Quran being not to replace or even give anything new, but to confirm. I've already studied the bible enough to know Jesus is not literally God and the trinity is not true, hence when I read it in the Quran all I see is fulfillment of the Qurans claim. By his time, Christians were teaching the trinity and the bible was shut up by the church and outlawed. Then Muhammed comes along teaching the truth about a book he couldn't even read (even if he had a copy he was illiterate) and correcting the teachings of said book - not replacing them. I find this very impressive, which is why I'm still reading it, trying to find any cotraditions or errors.

the closest I've come so far is a verse that states when God created Adam the Angels bowed down to Adam. I found this strange and actually stopped reading the Quran. However, I later found in other research that the Christians of his day were reading a book that taught the Angels bowed to Adam because of Adam being gods image. So, this was not a contradiction, and really only makes sense. I read the rest of it.

Im actively TRYING to disprove the Quran, but so far I am unable. It teaches everything about the bible I already believe and provided direction for people living at that specific time dealing with specific challenges.

The Book of Mormon however, contradicts the bible many times. Hence I excuse it. It tries to establish its own truth. As the Quran and the bible both say, God does not change, his messages would never contradict each other.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

I have a difficult time taking seriously the opinions and arguments of anyone who believes certain crappy books have been written by a super being possessing someone with a pen.

Also as to this point, remember the bible was written largely after something happened. With few exceptions to some things written as prophecy (whole different discussion I'm sure) it's not a case of God posessing someone. The gospels were all written in the late first century over 30 or even 40 years after Christ died. The only books in the NT written in what comes close to real time are the letters.

This is also true of the Quran. The Quran was taught orally. It was not written down until, likely, about 30 years after Muhammed died.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

The Quran adds nothing to the teaching of the bible.

It states that the bibles messages came through gods messengers before Muhammed and that they are valid messages from God. It does not contradict them. Rather, it condemns the teachings created from the bible that are not scriptural. Like Christ being God, or the trinity - these are not supported by the bible. So when a Christian reads the Quran and sees their Religion contradicted they say it's contradicting the bible. But as my posts have clearly shown with regard to Muslims and the Quran, just because a religion claims a book as its own doesn't mean they follow what it says. This is true of Muslims, clearly, and also of Christians.

The quran states it is a confirmation of previous messages and not a new message. So far I've found nothing extra in it that is a new teaching from the bible. Granted however, I'm only on my second read through.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

Also @ elaine

i just noticed you quoted the same Quranic verse and evidently just misunderstood it. That verse is not saying that they didn't cricify Jesus. It's saying that they absolutely did- but that they did not kill him as they hoped. This it was saying that they were allowed to believe they had killed him (because they did crucify him) but God raised him up.

Ill say the above a different way for clarity.

The Jewish leaders and people wanted Jesus dead. They wanted him in a tomb and out of their way. So they killed him... OR SO THEY THOUGHT, says the Quran, because God raised him up. See, it's notnsaying they didn't crucify him, it's saying they did in fact - and it was a very gruesom, convincing show making them think they won. But really, they are shown as fools, because God raised him from the grave to his right hand.

303

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

by TerryWalstrom in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hl6e4emx-4k

Jonathan Drake

I'm not saying gay marriage is okay, nor that it's wrong. I'm saying the bible emphatically demonstrates free will, and freedom of choice are what humanity is all about. My point was that the bible protects your right to do anything, but indicates there may be consequences. The entire lesson Christ left was a new commandment, "that you love one another."

Thus, does it say homosexuality is wrong? Yes. Does that mean all gay people will die? Absolutely not. The judge in the bible is Jesus, he directed his followers, "stop judging that you may not be judged." It is not any human beings place to say how someone will be judged, rather it is our place to live in harmony and love and treat all how we would like to be treated. If someone is wrong, Jesus is the judge, and in the end when our deeds are weighed against us and our hearts read that is when our judgement happens - but not by any man or women on this planet. This is the bibles message, and direction - but this is not followed. Christians judge homosexuals, and are up in arms over this issue. The same is true for Catholics and contraception, judgement being passed by men and women who are fragrantly ignoring the real message, which is to never ever do the things they are doing.

And here's the difference between the Book of Mormon and the bible and Quran. The Quran seeks to confirm the bible, and nowhere contradicts it. It encourages reading of the bible and the Quran, and devotion to God.

The Book of Mormon does contradict the bible and the Quran. Thus it is impossible to be true. It teaches that God actually had intercourse with mary and dismisses the holy spirits involvement. This is untrue. The differences between the Book of Mormon and the other two are vast, and it excuses the Mormon book as nothing more than another hadith or Didache (an extra-canonical book that should not be considered inspired).